Coyote Cartography

Extra tails.

Wait, why would this "Japan" even exist? Why are there kitsune myths at all? I don't get the premise even, so I don't see how the question can be answered apart from "whatever the author wants to say about it."

It's sorta like asking what "werewolves" would be in a furry world without humans. Like...morphic rabbits or whatever that turn into wolves? Morphic wolves that turn into...other morphic wolves?

So, author fiat. What do you think kitsunes should be in such a setting -- and what do they represent? How do they fit into this pseudo-Japanese culture?

That said, I'd say it wouldn't be all that bad to racially code them as Ainu or Okinawans...unless you're going to give them Fantastic Magical Powers. (We really don't need more "magical minority" stories, do we?)

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Oh dear gods, splitting hairs isn't any fun for the thought exercise. Splitting hares . . . maybe. The author is referring to "Japan" as a reference point of culture, parallel in outward appearance and customs to what we would call "feudal Japan". And, a Socratic answer is not what I think was wanted . . . and "author fiat" is not an answer which is any help. (Consider: "What do you think I should cook for dinner?" "Whatever you want. Chef fiat.")

I'll address the point you both brought up, and invoked, and trace it back to the root . . . what do kitsune represent in the first place, beyond the cultural concept? From what I've read, they're a trickster fox spirit. Or demon. Who have multiple tails, the rules for which are never really explicit.

So if you're going to approach "anthropomorphic foxes as kitsune" then you should stop and ask some questions for foundations:

- Are there foxes which are not "kitsune"? If so, what's the difference?

- If "kitsune" are indeed mystical in nature, are they actually magical or SPIRITUAL in nature? (There is a significant difference in nature depending on approach there.)

- What would their relationship to the material world actually be? Even if they weren't spirits, magical, mundane, or none of the above, how do they relate to the world at large?

From there you can use your answers to build up with more questions. Sure, it's all "author fiat" but then you have a roadmap of questions to work with.

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You probably could have made your point without dissing mine; they're not incompatible. :)

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Yes, you are right. I just didn't like the tone of your post, and I admit that freely.

That and the Socratic method of answering questions irritates the living crap out of me :P

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Why do such things bother you so much? What drives you to feel the need to rebuke people whose tones you dislike, rather than just making your own contributions to the discussion?

I'm just curious. I didn't find anything to disagree with in what you said about kitsunes, so maybe you can explain what I did that offended you so much.

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What makes you think I haven't made a contribution?

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tashiro.livejournal.com

I respectfully disagree. In a Japanese-like setting, they would most likely be kami, with all the weight and symbolism that such carries.

I've actually dealt with 'werewolves' in a furry setting. Essentially, the person infected goes feral. They get larger, more violent, and get the tools to become killing machines.

A 'were' rabbit would turn into a large, feral rabbit. The claws would become weapons, their bite would be devastating, and they would rabidly attack anything that gets near them. They wouldn't turn into a wolf... they're turn into a killer bunny.

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Well, they're not really like werewolves/lycanthropes then -- they're more like Dr. Jeckyl/Mr. Hyde, right?

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tashiro.livejournal.com

Except that Hyde was a scawny, thin, figure, smaller than Jeckyl, ugly and mis-shapen. Basically, think of Gollum as Jeckyl's counterpart.

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ladyperegrine.livejournal.com

I tend to think of kitsune as having a seductive impulse as well as an ability to shapeshift, disguising themselves to blend in with whichever species they're with at the moment.

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rikoshi.livejournal.com

From a linguistic standpoint, it's worth pointing out that kitsune is merely the Japanese word for fox. So, if there's going to be some distinction, socially or whatnot, you might what to think of how they'd term that (since, in theory, the characters will be thinking and speaking Japanese, even if the story is written in English).

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That's actually how this musing came about (i.e., the linguistics of it). In the original folktales, foxes are spirit animals and the tales are often about them taking human form to blend in with mortal society for a period. If mortal society includes mortal fox-people, what aspects of that story change? Perhaps there are still spirits who take the shape of mortals, and perhaps they only take the shape of foxes. But, among other questions, I'm not really sure what they'd be called.

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Well, maybe they'd be trees that take the shape of (furry) people.

I guess part of the question involves what role animals play in this world you're imagining. Is it like Goofy/Pluto, where both are dogs, but one is sentient and considered a person, and the other semi-sentient and considered a pet?

Is there a relationship between (furry) people and the animals they resemble? Are they thought of as ancestors, as descendants, as cousins, or as just beasts? Do anthropomorphic cows run Chick-Fil-A franchises? :)

That question probably has to be answered before you can answer what you call a kitsune. Is a "fox" a furry person who looks like a fox, or a normal fox animal? And then you can move on to whether "kitsune" means fox people, spirits, fox animals, or something else. I'd like to hear some more background about what you mean.

In my opinion, the "alternate, furry [something]" is the sticking point here, and how you define that will inform the rest of the answers.

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haikujaguar.livejournal.com

Maybe they're multi-tailed mutants, genetic sports that everyone mocks, so they've had to become tricksy, seductive and manipulative just to get people to take them seriously and give them a little respect. -_-

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prickvixen.livejournal.com

This doesn't really answer your question, but in Usagi Yojimbo, anthropomorphic foxes are just people, while kitsune are non-anthropomorphic, unless they're using illusion to look 'human.'

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I like and endorse this distinction :)
Wait, are you using the telepathy beams again, because I just wrote out half of a short story with a similar mechanic/gimmick in it . . .

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twentythoughts.livejournal.com

The easy answer is MOAR TAILS!

Another answer might be to have Kitsunes be something along the lines of the human-appearing creatures in our legends, like vampires... Kitsunes would look like regular foxes, and walk among the rest of the foxes, but would be of a more tricksy/seductive bent, and may have other powers. However, in order to use a lot of these powers, they'd have to reveal their extra tails, or something of the sort.

Kappa could be done similarly: Turtles who always kept the tops of their heads covered when out and about, and who were careful not to return bows, but who also had the powers of the human-legend Kappa.

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tashiro.livejournal.com

Okay. The way I do it is that you have fox folk. The kitsune are considered the 'nobility' of the fox folk (the upper, upper ranks of the Great Clans are kitsune, while the nobility and down are descended from them).

The kitsune in this case are seen as legendary figures, just one step short of being gods. They're kami, lesser spirits with spiritual powers, and represent the paragon of what a fox is supposed to be. They're ancestral spirits, divine guides, and the like.

Fortunately, the kitsune aren't alone. There's also usagi spirits, tengu, tanuki, ryu, etc. So it isn't that foxes are 'special', but they're the ones focussed on in the game I have.

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That's an interesting approach. I think for the story setting I'm working with there'd be a stronger delineation between the mortal foxes and the kami, although if there are kitsune equivalents there's certainly other mythical beings from the folk tales -- the question is mostly whether they'd ever come up.

(The setting does have a story in it already, which is a very "straight" samurai story with nothing unusual other than the anthropomorphic animal aspect -- so while it's similar to "Usagi Yojimbo" in feel, there hasn't been any sign of magic. I suspect I'd keep it low-key enough that the main character suspects she's met a kami in fox guise, but is never going to get conclusive proof.)

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Why's it an anthro story if it's a "straight" samurai story, out of curiosity?

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Author fiat.

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It was written for Further Confusion's con book. I wrote it in a way that not only left the door open for other stories but all but required future stories, since I was using samurai movies as a template.

I don't want to really step into the whole "do anthro animals in a story need to be justified" debate here (and I use the word debate advisedly, in that it's been kicked around among furry writers and panelists for as long as I've been in the fandom). Part of what I'm indirectly exploring with this question, however, is one way in which the non-human-ness of the characters might manifest itself over the course of the story cycle.

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jadedfox.livejournal.com

Hmm, Kitsune = normal fox.
Youko = Spirit fox / demon fox (westernly thought as a Kitsune)
Kyubi = nine tails. (kyubo no kitsune, kyubi no youko)

I'd say call foxes kitsune, or foxes, call spirit foxes Youko or spirit foxes. Treat em as different entities, like a ghost and a person.

Just my two cents.

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The problem with adding more Japanese-flavored terminology is how it can lead to a reader disconnect. Having them keep a running translation in the back of their head while reading can cause them to disconnect from the story and that ruins immersion.

I'm not saying it's "wrong" just saying adding them could potentially impact readability (is that a word? Well it is now!).

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This is an interesting question to me, because it is sort of a mirror to a situation I have observed.

After Fred Patten had his stroke, and had recovered enough to be placed in a convalescent residence/hospital in North Hollywood, I would transport him to weekly LASFS meetings, and to monthly meetings of the Cartoon/Fantasy Organisation (C/FO) and CinemAnime at the LASFS Clubhouse. The latter two events were so that Fred got SOME social interaction with fellow fannish folk, but could also keep up at least an appearance of trying to stay current on new anime releases and trends. To do this, however, meant he had to rely on me continuing to devote a good deal of time each week to getting him out of the hospital, driving him to and from, loading him in and out of his wheelchair, and generally attending to his needs. The only thing he could do to foster this was to try to pass on his interest and love of Anime to me, so I got the benefit of his observations on what was presented each week, and his background and interpretation of what we were seeing. There are perhaps better tutors on the subject, but one would be hard-pressed to find any westerners with a better grasp and understanding, to learn from.

I did NOT catch the Anime bug, unfortunately (or at least, I don't THINK so), but I marvelled at how much of what we were seeing was actually a japanese vision of our own cultural influences impacting their way of life, and their own interpretation of western values, motives, and personalities in what we were seeing - things which weren't "truly" japanese, and yet, when involving a western subject such as christianity or our own supernatural myths, that the producers just could never get right, and couldn't quite grasp. Seeing our cultural elements partially digested and served back to us DID give me a fascinating look at a part of japanese cultural CONTRAST which I don't think can be revealed in any other fashion.

Now - what does all of this have to do with your thought-problem? Simply that much of what we currently think we know or understand about japanese folklore - PARTICULARLY stories involving Fox-Spirits - is actually of our own, western creation, elaborations and embellishments wrapped around the original Japanese folklore core - which itself seems to have entered Japan via Manchuria (Korea), having migrated there from China, which adapted a very small core from what is now India, from "Way Back". I'm writing this "off the cuff" as it were, but I'm referring to a specific tale of an evil empress who was actually a shape-shifted fox.

There was a nice, scholarly website devoted to the history of the fox legends, at http://inari.garunya.com/, but it seems to now either have been removed, or changed its name, I can no longer access it....

(Continued)

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(Continuation)

...As to your question directly - I think that Stan Sakai's treatment is perhaps one of the best, since he has set his stories in the world which you describe; he does have a character named Kitsune, who was the daughter of a fabric merchant and his wife. Her mother was the stronger personality in the marriage, and had a good head for business, but she dies. Her father remarries a woman who sees Kitsune as a threat and a liability ("Evil Step-mother"), and as the business slowly fails, indentures her off to a family who run an inn, and treat her as an indentured servant. She grows and matures, until she catches the eye of the owner of the local brothel - and overhears the deal whereby she is sold to him, she flees, with only the clothes on her back. Eventually she is forced to steal bread, is chased by the local cops, but is sheltered by a cat femme street conjurer. Seeing "potential", the cat takes her under her wing, and teaches her two skills - street conjuring and juggling - and how to be a pickpocket and burglar. The cat femme also gives her a new name for her new life, christening her as "Kitsune" (and here, Sakai has her responding, "After the Trickster Fox?").

There is no magic in this setting - at least, none involving the Kitsune character - she is just an ordinary mortal, in a world of Cats (Neko) and Dogs and rabbits and lions and at least 2 rhinos, but again the shape reflects personality rather than distinct ethnic differences. The japanese, after all, pride themselves on an ethnic and racial homogenaeity (sp), which isn't _quite_ 100 percent.

There is a history of slang references to prostitutes as "neko" and "kitsune" in feudal and post-feudal Japan, but this may just be referring to the attractiveness and attributed sensuality of these creatures to attractive women of "negotiable affections".

The question is one of whether you wish to have a world with demons, spirits, and supernatural wildlife prominent or not. The powers which folklore attributes to Foxes and Raccoon-dogs and Badgers, etc, are only attributable because these creatures ARE "Not people/not human", but represent the external, the "other". Make the people in your setting anthro animals, and you can't really have them assuming the powers of "the other". Demos, Ghosts, Kami, Tengu, yes - but not the wildlife of which folklore speaks, if they happen to make up Society.

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I know the "modern kitsune" that comes to us mostly through anime and roleplaying games (and from what my research a while ago suggested, from Mercedes Lackey!) are only marginally related to the original myths, yep. I actually did an article a few years back for a long defunct furry non-fiction 'zine on kitsune; a version of it is on my web site now.

I've thought about Usagi Yojimbo in relation to my story setting, which I suppose isn't at all surprising: you're quite right in that the settings are very similar. Usagi's world is more overtly mythic, by conscious design, but Hisae, my samurai wolf, could appear as a character in a Usagi story without being remotely out of place. But I think Hisae's world isn't one in which magic is going to be quite as easy to come across as Usagi's world, or at least as easy to be sure you've actually come across it. After all, in the original folk tales, people sometimes lived for years with a kitsune among them before some mistake on the kitsune's part revealed their spirit nature.

(The homogeneous nature of "real" Japan, particularly during that time period, is something I haven't tried to grapple with yet. Having the species reflect personality like Sakai does is one approach; another that occurred to me is having them reflect social class, but that opens cans of worms that wouldn't have been there in the real world that I may not want to add.)

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cougar1823.livejournal.com

I think that linguistically, in a furry feudal Japan, fox people might be called kitsune. Since you mentioned a low-magic version, I would assume that there wouldn't be shape-shifting fox spirits with weird powers, thus no need to distinguish between fox-people and kitsunes.

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shaterri.livejournal.com

One analogy I'm surprised no one has drawn yet: in western fantasy, when an author wants to introduce human-but-not-exactly, humanoid-but-alien, creatures into their setting, the natural fallback is to make them elves. I can easily see, as others have offered up, kitsune -- or what they're supposed to represent -- as the cultural and setting equivalent; familiar enough to be that much more startling in their difference...

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shockwave77598.livejournal.com

Well, if there's no magic, then I must conclude that you also mean there is no Godess Inari. Since the white Kitsune is supposed to be a messenger from Inari, having no Inari rather defeats that.

Of course you can easily use this in a plot. Have a superstitious populace who believe in the flying spaghetti... sorry, I meant to say Inari. And a couple of societal organizations similar to the church that gains power and wealth by feeding this myth. Then throw in the white fox who -should- be a priestess, but wants nothing to do with it.

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traveller-blues.livejournal.com

From a writing mechanic, your narrator is either going to be the kitsune him/herself, in which case you're going to be going with the 'alien trying to fit in' route -- hide your magic, avoid discovery, avoid the temptation to use your magic.

If your narrator is someone who is mortal-normal who meets said kitsune, then it's going to be either friendly (benevolent magical encounter that people don't believe the narrator when he/she tries to retell of the encounter), or evil (lending itself to the witch hunt style storyline).

And of course, there's Allen's 'discovery of a god that is like us but not like us' angle gifting the lucky follower with some benediction, which begs the title:

"Inar' I, Mage."

-Traveller

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"...with races of anthropomorphic animals instead of humans but no other (overt) magic and myth, what would it mean for a fox-person to be a kitsune?"

After reading all the other fine responses and views offered here, and after re-reading your question in light of those views, I think that it is a question which Anthro Artists have been dealing with since Furry Fandom started creating graphic art.

A standard convention has more or less been established, by artists such as Theresa Mather and Ruben Avila, and which I've seen used commercially at least once - the cover illustration for Kij Johnson's "The Fox Woman" - is to depict an anthro-vixen in a Kimono, holding a white face mask, usually with a woman's face design. In MAther's case, it is most prominently seen in her paintings "Secret Sisterhood" and "Fear No More", the latter in which a weeping kitsune vixen, revealed as she drops her mask, is comforted by a lord - who has dropped his, revealing himself to also be a kitsune. MCA Hogarth may have also used this "dropped mask" trick.

At last year's FURther CONfusion Ruben Avila, who does sculpture, had a set-piece called "Confronting the Kitsune"; it was set on an oval, split across the narrow part by a small stream, with a small "moon" bridge crossing it, with stone statuary lanterns depicting demons standing left and right of the bridge. On one side the land is clear, on the other is a copse of dense bamboo. On the clear side is a Cat samurai archer, on the bamboo side is a fox figure in a portion of a kimono.

Lying on the bridge - on the clear, samurai side - is the outer coat portion of a kimono, with an arrow sticking from the upper left shoulder, and a spot of blood. Also on the ground is a white mask, molded in the features of a Cat face, and a long flute. The bridge itself is bristling with spen arrows, or rather parts of those arrows, for many have been split in mid-air by a sword which the kitsune, standing on the opposite bank, has been using, along with a folding fan, for defense. Blood trickles down the left arm of the kitsune, who has a fierce, desperate grimace on his face and in his eyes. It appears as though the Kitsune was fired upon from a distance, and has retreated across the bridge, with the samurai, approaching, closer and closer, until only the bridge separates them. At this close range, there is almost no chance of missing, and the arrow will span that short distance in too short an interval for the kitsune to bring up the sword and split the arrow; on the other hand, there is only one arrow left in the quiver - and there is something about the nature of those lanterns, and that copse of bamboo, which suggests an "Ichabod Crane / Headless Horseman" enchantment to the bridge, which may prevent the samurai from crossing.

As Anthro Sculpture setpieces go, this was rather large and quite stunning in detail, considering all that Ruben had to create by hand; I got it for minimum bid as the artshow was closing, have spent uncountable hours studying, and sought out Ruben at another convention to talk about it.

The point is - here is a fox in a world of other similar anthro animals, but the only way to distinguish between it merely being another person/animal and something uncanny and perhaps malicious is the use of an external prop - and if one isn't familiar with the context of that prop, from other artwork in this genre, then you have no idea at all as to what is happening, or why.

So perhaps - if you wish to use a Spirit Fox or Celestial Fox sworn to Inari's service or whatever you wish to call upon, rather than just simple, ordinary foxes, - you will need to make it clear with either the overt use of a prop in an illustration, or in writing a non-fox character who doesn't quite ring true, with a noticable flaw in the illusion - which I think is the main manner in folklore whereby Fox Wives are revealed and chased out of villages. Very few of the folktales I've seen are told from the point of view of the fox/kitsune, anyway - and these start with the kitsune as a fox, who later transforms into a person.

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